Curse

Sethellington · Aug 28, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

It's a shame, I know that SS is still the preffered build for most Necromancers who play this game, but I think that a good MoP can easily outdamage a good SS Necromancer.

MoP can't outdamage SS by itself it's crazy good when enemies are balled up and there are 1 or 2 100b wars. Then it can be 2000+ AoE dmg. But good luck finding a rand group that has a perma, 2 100b's and a slot for an MoP for you

TalanRoarer · Aug 28, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sethellington

MoP can't outdamage SS by itself it's crazy good when enemies are balled up and there are 1 or 2 100b wars. Then it can be 2000+ AoE dmg. But good luck finding a rand group that has a perma, 2 100b's and a slot for an MoP for you

Don't need a perma :/. 1 100b and a sin hero (lol) will do for the lolspikes :P.

Now I do see your point; SS requires little or no input at all from other team members.

But personally I'd rather run around in HM with Anton and Koss whilst playing MoP then switch over to SS.

I'm not trying to bring up the whole SS vs MoP or Active vs Reactive hexing thing again; Moloch dealt with both of those a while back. I just feel that it is a shame that there are so few MoP Necros about.

Outerworld · Aug 29, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

Don't need a perma :/. 1 100b and a sin hero (lol) will do for the lolspikes :P.

tbh we didnt even need the sin hero really.

Sethellington · Aug 29, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

Don't need a perma :/. 1 100b and a sin hero (lol) will do for the lolspikes :P.

Now I do see your point; SS requires little or no input at all from other team members.

But personally I'd rather run around in HM with Anton and Koss whilst playing MoP then switch over to SS.

I'm not trying to bring up the whole SS vs MoP or Active vs Reactive hexing thing again; Moloch dealt with both of those a while back. I just feel that it is a shame that there are so few MoP Necros about.

Yes, I see your point. But using up 2 hero slots for physicals is risky business. But like you said, a single 100b will do. In honesty, there's no reason not to use SS and MoP on the same bar. Just use AoS instead of AP. It's what I prefer to run in FoWSC too. It's still not useful unless they're balled, and you had a human war to do that for you.

TalanRoarer · Aug 29, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sethellington

Yes, I see your point. But using up 2 hero slots for physicals is risky business. But like you said, a single 100b will do. In honesty, there's no reason not to use SS and MoP on the same bar. Just use AoS instead of AP. It's what I prefer to run in FoWSC too. It's still not useful unless they're balled, and you had a human war to do that for you.

Sure. Running with Meele heroes is risky and possibly a little stupid if you don't wanna be agroing half the map.

The thing that always impresses me about MoP is the speed of the spikes we can achieve. Using EVAS with casting range to ball up a mob allows the warrior to Shadowstep in (Which infact he didn't have on that Screen as W/Rt) and kill the entire mob fast and efficiently.

Mark of Pain is optimal when using a Perma and/or some other form of balling. But it isn't essential. over the course of a vq/mission; things will stand close enough to each other for MoP to still work well.

MoP and SS would be good together; my only problem with using them on the same bar is that of the huge recharge. AoS is only a chance whereas AP is a gurantee :P.

I see your points though man and in the end it does come down to preference; its fun to see what other people think though.

cellardweller · Aug 30, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Pugs don't clear fast enough to make AP necissary, by the time you've reached the next group the 20s recharge will be over so its not an either/or situation. That being said, I still wouldn't recomend SS because its damage is dependent on poor play. I'd rather have a mid spec ineptitude or panic.

HigherMinion · Aug 30, 2010, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Pugs don't clear fast enough to make AP necissary, by the time you've reached the next group the 20s recharge will be over so its not an either/or situation. That being said, I still wouldn't recomend SS because its damage is dependent on poor play. I'd rather have a mid spec ineptitude or panic.

That. Is wrong.

Just from the fact your PUG team has a MoP in their team will make them that much faster anyway. Also, don't run Ineptitude

Also @Ben- How can you see the point in using SS with MoP when they both have the same AoE range and MoP's damage is higher? If you were to take any more AoE damage, it'd be Splinter Weapon, as it apparently has a larger range than MoP.

I also don't see the risks of taking multiple physicals in general PvE. Just because they're melee doesn't mean they don't listen when you flag them, and they're prottable also.

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Eugh... didn't this topic die ages ago?

Spiteful Spirit - pathetic damage from a reactive hex. It'll kill things eventually and therefor is a nice example of a "low ceiling, high floor skill". So long as you can actually put the hex on the enemy, the enemy will eventually die. This doesn't make it good or even passable in some cases, but it'll work most of the time.

Mark of Pain - excellent damage if your physicals have some coordination. Physical damage is a very common damage source and even a MM in team filled completely with casters can be enough to cause Mark of Pain to exceed the damage done from SS (although this depends entirely on how the minions aggro). Mark of Pain is much more of a "high ceiling, low floor" skill.
Mark of Pain needs very few physicals attacking it to exceed SS in damage. In fact, one player physical will do.

Both skills require enemies to ball up slightly to even be worth discussing. The argument "MoP requires balled up foes" is stupid in this case since SS on a single target is also complete waste of time.
AP-MoP also contains one of the strongest spikes available to a caster (YMLAD, FH, EVAS - although FH or YMLAD are often changed for BuH). This spike requires no input from your team and provides an expendable physical to absorb the initial hits from the enemy and to trigger Mark of Pain.
Heroes and Henchmen are coordinated enough to make an AP-MoP build viable as a H/H build. If any player performs worse than a henchmen then you simply shouldn't try playing with that player as a Necromancer.

SS only shines when your team is absolute shit. That is only if they cannot kill anything at all. The more your team improves, the worse SS gets until the entire template simply degrades to this character that tries to stick Barbs on a target whilst it still matters (except people don't seem to bring Barbs on SS bars anymore...).

I've explained how Mark of Pain exceeds SS when using the minimum standard of a player a Necromancer should bother playing with - henchmen. Even if you choose to play with the complete scrubs for something then SS is still not something I would recommend (neither is AP-MoP).

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I also don't see the risks of taking multiple physicals in general PvE. Just because they're melee doesn't mean they don't listen when you flag them, and they're prottable also.

AI melee characters are shit. They don't have to die to count as shit.
And with the current Ritualists, I cannot justify bringing hero physicals any more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sethellington

there's no reason not to use SS and MoP on the same bar. Just use AoS instead of AP.

There are reasons.
SS is shit. Taking it costs your elite and means you have to burn a PvE skill for AoS just to sometimes fill the function of AP.
SS costs 15e and 2.75 seconds of my time to do next to bugger all.

The strength of an SS bar comes not from SS; it comes from the rest of the bar which should be filled with the nicer things from the Cuses line. An AP-MoP bar can still take a lot of those goodies and since repeated MoP beats SS + the odd MoP given the right, easily filled conditions, the bar is simply superior.

Xeng Suey · Aug 30, 2010, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

Mark of Pain.

We all know the build:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/A_Mark_of_Pain_Nuker

In my experiences in Guild Wars, this is one of the best DPS builds when it is used properly. Having said this; I barely see any MoP necromancers about when doing daily ZQs or pugging other activites.

It's a shame, I know that SS is still the preffered build for most Necromancers who play this game, but I think that a good MoP can easily outdamage a good SS Necromancer.

I guess I just wanted to open this up for discussion:

How do you rate MoP vs SS?
Any ideas on why the number of MoP Necromancers about are low? (Outside of FoWSC)

Feel free to comment on either of my questions, or anything you believe to be relevant to the topic.

-Ben.

From what i have seen, most of the people playing the game at this point:

1. Can't position properly;
2. Can't use correct Equipment;
3. Can't use skills properly (due to fact of nnot knowing how skills work)

Given this people tend to use brainless bars in witch you only need to smash buttons down and roll faces into keyboards in order to make builds to work, this is why SS is prefered to a AP bar, and this is why frontliners cant play 100b correctly, can´t use body block in team favor, and can't use some other frontlining tools in favor of theyr team.

So there are two different types of answer for your questions:

A. Suposing you make a team with 1 or 2 of your friends (people you trust using theyr skill bars and player skills):

If u manage to get a Necro, an a physical human players you can always setup a team in order to take the advantage of the AP/MoP bar ( for instance: if the area you are facing have mobs that leave corpses you can setup the folowing team: AP/MoP Nec; 100b W with drunken master, asuran scan and IAU among sword skills like server artery, gash, sun and moon slash and savage slash; 1Jagged Bones MM with FoF; 1 Icy Veins MM with EoE; 1 UA Smiter with SoH; ST rit (with shelter, displacement and union); 2 x Xinrae weapons healer with vengefull weapon, spirit transfer, life, rejuv, recup and recov). I can assure you this team build, if played properly, cleans any HM area in quite a reasonable time.
I often play this with a friend!

Note: this team setup is still possible, with the apropriate adjustments, in a area with mobs that dont leave corpses.

B. Suposing you make a team with 7 people you dont know from anywhere (pugs):

It is quite random if the people you are getting on your team can use or not theyr bars, have correct equipment and positioning skills. But in most of the cases, peole wont be good and will imidiatly start asking if u have 2 heal monks and a imba, so you need to stick to the basics: 1 tank, 1 imba, 2 or 3 Eles, 1 SS nec, eventually 1 mesmer or 1 MM, 2 monks. In this cases it is almost certain you won't have mop (unless u ask the SS to bring it). Also, you can always ask people to run a given bar (as i try to do sometimes when i decide to pug) but in most cases people will start leaving party because they either: don't have the skills you request, or because they think the skills ain't proper (yes because the WAMMO bars with heal sig, vigorous spirit and bane signet are the best, in theyr own minds....) or because they can't be arsed to play other bar then the one they have loaded....
In this case, if u leave town with this party, you might get results but the DPS will be very very low given the times i'v had observing when playing in this kind of teams....

So, given all this my opinion is:

1. MoP vs. SS

It is more then obvious for me that MoP is much much better then SS (and you dont even need a SF sin to make it work in most cases...)

2. Reason for few AP/MoP Necs out there:

The answer to this is embebed in the text above.

Other aspect i find relevant for this discussion:

If the necro owns EoTN expansion pack, the AP bar can be modidied to a PoD bar (pain of disenchantment) with MoP, barbs, Air of superiority... depending if the area where u are playing have some enchantments on foes or not, if the foes dont have enchantments on them, you can always go Icy Veins instead of PoD with is a very good spike skill addinf some AoE dmg when the enemy dies.

Hope this helps anyhow....
~Cheers

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2010, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

From what i have seen, most of the people playing the game at this point:

1. Can't position properly;
2. Can't use correct Equipment;
3. Can't use skills properly (due to fact of nnot knowing how skills work)

That's fine. I only care that they know how to auto-attack.
If they knew were the "t" button was located on their keyboard that'd be even better, but that seems to be a closely guarded secret that not even the better players I play with seem to know about. No matter, the bar works fine if I look at the battlefield a little bit.

Xeng Suey · Aug 30, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

That's fine. I only care that they know how to auto-attack.
If they knew were the "t" button was located on their keyboard that'd be even better, but that seems to be a closely guarded secret that not even the better players I play with seem to know about. No matter, the bar works fine if I look at the battlefield a little bit.

If people fail @ gw basics as i stated, how do you expect people use theyr keyboard in theyr own favor and in favor of theyr team?

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2010, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

If people fail @ gw basics as i stated, how do you expect people use theyr keyboard in theyr own favor and in favor of theyr team?

No. My point is that auto-attacking is enough for my Nec's build to work. If they can't do that then I cannot believe they made it out of Pre-Searing (or indeed any starter area or mission).

Xeng Suey · Aug 30, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No. My point is that auto-attacking is enough for my Nec's build to work. If they can't do that then I cannot believe they made it out of Pre-Searing (or indeed any starter area or mission).

Well... once again the answer, imo, folows under the two options below:

A. Frontliner/Physical is your friend:

Either you let him know he is not folowing you targets and you teach him to use T-Space, or you tell him to play another role other then the frontliner one.
Can also happens that the target you chosed aint proper (for instance, imagine that you arent playing with a SF sin, in such an area that your fronliner have to body-block a nice ball of mobs. It is obvious that the fronliner can only attack the mobs that are near him, but supose you called a target that is far back and the fronliner cant attack him or the ball of enemys will spread out and aggro your whole party.... you see what i mean? In this cases, and i think i can talk about it since i have experience with this, it is better to let the fronliner call, assuming he knows what hes doing ofc or tell him to call everything but monks....)

B. Frontliner/Physical is pug

If u wanna complete the area you will have to teach him or u can always rage and wait for your friends :P
With pugs there aint much you can do about it unfortunantly, imo....

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

Well... once again the answer, imo, folows under the two options below:

[stuff]

No, you don't understand. If he can auto-attack then I do not require anything else from him. This becomes more true the more physicals I have in my team. If I have 4 pug physicals then I do not care if they don't focus fire, don't use good skills or even use a maxed weapon. All I care about is that they regularly deal physical damage to the enemy by attacking.
I can make up for their shortcomings in damage. No matter what else they do, so long as they keep attacking with a physical weapon, I can ensure things die. The pressure in this case is on the backline - if they can't keep us propped up until the physicals target an enemy in a mob then we'll collapse. This would also be the case if I ran SS.

Xeng Suey · Aug 30, 2010, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No, you don't understand. If he can auto-attack then I do not require anything else from him. This becomes more true the more physicals I have in my team. If I have 4 pug physicals then I do not care if they don't focus fire, don't use good skills or even use a maxed weapon. All I care about is that they regularly deal physical damage to the enemy by attacking.
I can make up for their shortcomings in damage. No matter what else they do, so long as they keep attacking with a physical weapon, I can ensure things die. The pressure in this case is on the backline - if they can't keep us propped up until the physicals target an enemy in a mob then we'll collapse. This would also be the case if I ran SS.

lol
Sorry but i dont understand you.

You use MoP and you dont need the physicals to focus theyr hits on your MpP'ed target?

How u make mobs go down?

How u expect your team Healers/Protters keep team up if u dont release pressure form them?

Xenomortis · Aug 30, 2010, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

You use MoP and you dont need the physicals to focus theyr hits on your MpP'ed target?

When I play AP-MoP, I play with good people. These people will try to follow my calls.
If I play AP-MoP with bad people that I know won't follow my calls, I won't bother calling. It becomes a case where I simply try to follow them and amplify their damage output whenever I can. If they target something away from the mob then I'd cast Barbs, AP and spike him down with YMLAD and Finish Him (I wouldn't bring BuH if I knew they were bad). If they target an enemy in a mob, then I use Mark of Pain. All the time I'd be keeping Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste or whatever weakening hexes I have. If following them was too much, I'd simply put Mark of Pain on a good target, spam the target as much as possible in the hope they'd notice and attack - this is an act of desperation though but can work, at least they should make their way too him in time.

This case isn't very easy and isn't very efficient, but it can exceed the output of SS. AP-MoP is stronger if your physicals do follow your calls, but it's still strong enough to beat SS even if they don't.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't run AP-MoP in this situation nor would I run SS. I would actually run a Fevered Dreams build but if pushed I would probably switch to my old SS build but replace SS with Wail of Doom or something. I've actually been wanting to use WoD for some time but the recharge makes it hard to justify now - the previous 10 second recharge was more workable.

Xeng Suey · Aug 30, 2010, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

When I play AP-MoP, I play with good people. These people will try to follow my calls.
If I play AP-MoP with bad people that I know won't follow my calls, I won't bother calling. It becomes a case where I simply try to follow them and amplify their damage output whenever I can. If they target something away from the mob then I'd cast Barbs, AP and spike him down with YMLAD and Finish Him (I wouldn't bring BuH if I knew they were bad). If they target an enemy in a mob, then I use Mark of Pain. All the time I'd be keeping Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste or whatever weakening hexes I have. If following them was too much, I'd simply put Mark of Pain on a good target, spam the target as much as possible in the hope they'd notice and attack - this is an act of desperation though but can work, at least they should make their way too him in time.

This case isn't very easy and isn't very efficient, but it can exceed the output of SS. AP-MoP is stronger if your physicals do follow your calls, but it's still strong enough to beat SS even if they don't.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't run AP-MoP in this situation nor would I run SS. I would actually run a Fevered Dreams build but if pushed I would probably switch to my old SS build but replace SS with Wail of Doom or something. I've actually been wanting to use WoD for some time but the recharge makes it hard to justify now - the previous 10 second recharge was more workable.

Haaaa ok! Now i understand you...
I didnt know you were assuming a situation where u were playing in a PUG team...

TalanRoarer · Aug 30, 2010, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Also @Ben- How can you see the point in using SS with MoP when they both have the same AoE range and MoP's damage is higher? If you were to take any more AoE damage, it'd be Splinter Weapon, as it apparently has a larger range than MoP.

Essentially I was referring to running them on the same bar; I.E without AP. That is the only way they seem viable together for me. If you were taking 2 Curses Necrmancers (APMoP/SS) you'd soon run out of decent skills to bring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Eugh... didn't this topic die ages ago?

Maybe, but I knew you'd turn up eventually X.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

If people fail @ gw basics as i stated, how do you expect people use theyr keyboard in theyr own favor and in favor of theyr team?

Not only that, its amazing how often pugs won't listen when asked just to T-space.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

When I play AP-MoP, I play with good people. These people will try to follow my calls.
If I play AP-MoP with bad people that I know won't follow my calls, I won't bother calling. It becomes a case where I simply try to follow them and amplify their damage output whenever I can. If they target something away from the mob then I'd cast Barbs, AP and spike him down with YMLAD and Finish Him (I wouldn't bring BuH if I knew they were bad). If they target an enemy in a mob, then I use Mark of Pain. All the time I'd be keeping Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste or whatever weakening hexes I have. If following them was too much, I'd simply put Mark of Pain on a good target, spam the target as much as possible in the hope they'd notice and attack - this is an act of desperation though but can work, at least they should make their way too him in time.

Exceptionally good point. If you are clever enough as an AP/MoP, you can still exceed the damage done by SS even if your physicals aren't following calls.

Also X; don't you play 100b/MoP more than AP/MoP

?

HigherMinion · Aug 30, 2010, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalanRoarer

Essentially I was referring to running them on the same bar; I.E without AP. That is the only way they seem viable together for me. If you were taking 2 Curses Necrmancers (APMoP/SS) you'd soon run out of decent skills to bring.

Also X; don't you play 100b/MoP more than AP/MoP

?

I actually meant on the same bar. SS would just get in the way. If you wanted to deal a bit more damage, you'd just take Barbs and autoattack. Fevered Dreams is fun h/h, but not as fun as meleemancer!

TalanRoarer · Aug 30, 2010, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I actually meant on the same bar. SS would just get in the way. If you wanted to deal a bit more damage, you'd just take Barbs and autoattack. Fevered Dreams is fun h/h, but not as fun as meleemancer!

Well: if a player is hell bent on taking SS, MoP is a viable option for his bar.